Why so many French attended the anti-China protest?

luhua773 wrote:I have seen the question from French, maybe it is fair to ask my Chinese question: Why so many French don't like China?

Torch relay was interrupted in many cities, no big deal. But it was the worst in Paris. And the Paris city government is most hostile China. Recently, Paris just awarded the title of honorary citizen to Dalai. Are these people too ignorant or too stupid? It is fair to say that French (at least some, even many in the government) encouraged all the anti-China protest. Hostility will be treated with hostility, it is as natural as breathing the air.


Some French need to understand that you can't boss people around, let alone Paris has the Muslim youth problem.

just one thing many seems to have forgoten
the first time the problems arisen where in london. this is april 6. from this moment there would be real problems. Londres was the "preparation" for the protesters and they probably where not fully organised. But londres is not far from paris and many protester of london took thetrain and where also in paris. this time they knew better what to do and not do.
on the contrary 1 day ago, before london, there was no reason to protect the flamme more than it was. there was only 1 day to upgrade the police protection, wich was probably too short.
conpared to this, the oters city had plenty of time to prepare after paris. san fransisco was the 9, 3 day after london and 2 city later.

you can consider this, did Paris had the time to realise the problem it would be? and consider also that the city add the protesters from paris AND from london in her street.
if the position of san fransisco and paris (geographicaly and in flamme's way) would have been reversed, would it be different or no?

i personaly think that explain a big part of what appened in paris. but this is after all just my opinion

But, what do you expect from the country where Hilter was born?

Luohua, I expect you're not serious with that very kind of assertion - otherwise, that would be the reason why no-one can understand each other here - because there is no way you can expect anykind of discussion with this sort of arguments...
And actually, mind you, Hitler was born in Austria anyway...

I believe this is what happened: the torch was going to the paris city council square (sorry, I read the report in Chinese, it is hard to translate back to English) where the paris officials already prepared to show their support to dalia and tibet indpendence by hanging the tibet flag on the city hall. So the Chinese organizer decided to skip it and jump to the next relay.

Hum please read my message then - the torch was not going to Paris city hall or anything, everything is happening the courtyard of Canal Plus (Channel 4)

they tried to show some kind of sign of tibet or dalai which they should not do because they signed a code of conduct (not to display any political or religious sign) before the torch relay.

Then you should get some info and find out what was the sign about - I bet you'll be surprised by what was written on it...

If france is invaded by German again, I believe most french would fight for france even though the french government imaybe unpopular. French will fight for their country, not for their government although the fight would be led by the government they may not like. Why is it so hard for french to understand?

Well, as you seem to like to mention that very "Germany invades France" argument, don't you want to think for a minute and just see that the French just don't understand - because they have no idea you may feel like that having discontent in Tibet, getting the Torch disrupted or Jin Jing assaulted is anywhere related to an invasion of your homeland?!

Fix wrote:

luhua773 wrote:I have seen the question from French, maybe it is fair to ask my Chinese question: Why so many French don't like China?

Torch relay was interrupted in many cities, no big deal. But it was the worst in Paris. And the Paris city government is most hostile China. Recently, Paris just awarded the title of honorary citizen to Dalai. Are these people too ignorant or too stupid? It is fair to say that French (at least some, even many in the government) encouraged all the anti-China protest. Hostility will be treated with hostility, it is as natural as breathing the air.


Some French need to understand that you can't boss people around, let alone Paris has the Muslim youth problem.

just one thing many seems to have forgoten
the first time the problems arisen where in london. this is april 6. from this moment there would be real problems. Londres was the "preparation" for the protesters and they probably where not fully organised. But londres is not far from paris and many protester of london took thetrain and where also in paris. this time they knew better what to do and not do.
on the contrary 1 day ago, before london, there was no reason to protect the flamme more than it was. there was only 1 day to upgrade the police protection, wich was probably too short.
conpared to this, the oters city had plenty of time to prepare after paris. san fransisco was the 9, 3 day after london and 2 city later.

you can consider this, did Paris had the time to realise the problem it would be? and consider also that the city add the protesters from paris AND from london in her street.
if the position of san fransisco and paris (geographicaly and in flamme's way) would have been reversed, would it be different or no?

i personaly think that explain a big part of what appened in paris. but this is after all just my opinion

What you said maybe true, but what strikes me most is that many more french participated in the anti-china rally. And the paris city council showed open hostility to the torch replay for whatever reason.

Le métèque - Admin wrote:

they tried to show some kind of sign of tibet or dalai which they should not do because they signed a code of conduct (not to display any political or religious sign) before the torch relay.

Then you should get some info and find out what was the sign about - I bet you'll be surprised by what was written on it...

I didn't read the actual code of conduct. However, I read an English report about a female torch bearer who tried to show tibetan sign and was pushed out to the roadside by US cops. It was mentioned in this report that a code of conduct was signed by every torch bearer not to display anything political or religious. I would be surprised that if there was no such code of conduct. Unfortunately, many torch bearers did not honor their words, which a lot of media don't like to cover. I guess you need no morality in the fight against evil chinese communist.

here is the link of ny times report. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/11/nyregion/11carter.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
you can search code of conduct.

If you have any details about the code of conduct, I'd like to know. If you prove i am wrong, I am happy to admit my mistake.

Le métèque - Admin wrote:

I believe this is what happened: the torch was going to the paris city council square (sorry, I read the report in Chinese, it is hard to translate back to English) where the paris officials already prepared to show their support to dalia and tibet indpendence by hanging the tibet flag on the city hall. So the Chinese organizer decided to skip it and jump to the next relay.

Hum please read my message then - the torch was not going to Paris city hall or anything, everything is happening the courtyard of Canal Plus (Channel 4)

This is your advantage of speaking french. All my information is from chinese and english. I wrote my message based on my memory, so there could be some errors. Since you read chinese, you can go search for it. I have no idea about the places you were talking about. It is like I tell you that no one was killed in tian an men square during the tian an men bloodshed. If you know what I mean, then you know quite a lot about beijing.

Le métèque - Admin wrote:

But, what do you expect from the country where Hilter was born?

Luohua, I expect you're not serious with that very kind of assertion - otherwise, that would be the reason why no-one can understand each other here - because there is no way you can expect anykind of discussion with this sort of arguments...
And actually, mind you, Hitler was born in Austria anyway...

OK, I am half serious. I do believe there is something called national characters (they do change though over time). I am sure there are some stereotypes among French about German or Chinese. You can't apply it to everyone, but it bears some truth. Anti-Semite sentiment was rampant in Europe before WWII, but only Germany had the nerve to try to eliminate the whole Jewish population. It must be an indicator of something special.

Yes, Hiltler was born in Austria, I forgot this. But wasn't Austria a part of German during WWII, so I was not completely wrong .

Le métèque - Admin wrote:

If france is invaded by German again, I believe most french would fight for france even though the french government imaybe unpopular. French will fight for their country, not for their government although the fight would be led by the government they may not like. Why is it so hard for french to understand?

Well, as you seem to like to mention that very "Germany invades France" argument, don't you want to think for a minute and just see that the French just don't understand - because they have no idea you may feel like that having discontent in Tibet, getting the Torch disrupted or Jin Jing assaulted is anywhere related to an invasion of your homeland?!

My friend, it is an analogue, not an equation. French are supposed to be romantic. Now I doubt you are a French:). If German invades France, I am sure French would take up your guns even A-bombs, not take it to street. See the difference?

luhuazhao773 wrote:

What you said maybe true, but what strikes me most is that many more french participated in the anti-china rally. And the paris city council showed open hostility to the torch replay for whatever reason.

i work at like 5 minutes of where the torch relay passed and i saw nothing at all
there are maybee many more, but only if you consider 2 as many more than 1
i fear that you had been abused by the way it is shown on TV like for the "riots" in 2005 where many people outside france where almost thinking that this was almost a civil war . the way TV show images is often biaised and should not be taken litteraly (in France and the rest of the world, this is not a country problem but the way television work)

Fix wrote:

luhuazhao773 wrote:

What you said maybe true, but what strikes me most is that many more french participated in the anti-china rally. And the paris city council showed open hostility to the torch replay for whatever reason.

i work at like 5 minutes of where the torch relay passed and i saw nothing at all
there are maybee many more, but only if you consider 2 as many more than 1
i fear that you had been abused by the way it is shown on TV like for the "riots" in 2005 where many people outside france where almost thinking that this was almost a civil war . the way TV show images is often biaised and should not be taken litteraly (in France and the rest of the world, this is not a country problem but the way television work)

Sorry, friend. I can't give you more information. I guess those people were not spreaded evenly along the relay route. They must have gathered in groups in key areas and they moved as needed. I was not in paris, what I described is based on what I read online. I think it should be considered a fact: the paris city council encouraged and participated in the anti-china rally, which is most unacceptable to me. Is your president asking for an EU collective boycott of the opening ceremony? I don't think it would make anything better.

luhuazhao773 wrote:

Fix wrote:

luhuazhao773 wrote:

What you said maybe true, but what strikes me most is that many more french participated in the anti-china rally. And the paris city council showed open hostility to the torch replay for whatever reason.

i work at like 5 minutes of where the torch relay passed and i saw nothing at all
there are maybee many more, but only if you consider 2 as many more than 1
i fear that you had been abused by the way it is shown on TV like for the "riots" in 2005 where many people outside france where almost thinking that this was almost a civil war . the way TV show images is often biaised and should not be taken litteraly (in France and the rest of the world, this is not a country problem but the way television work)

Sorry, friend. I can't give you more information. I guess those people were not spreaded evenly along the relay route. They must have gathered in groups in key areas and they moved as needed. I was not in paris, what I described is based on what I read online. I think it should be considered a fact: the paris city council encouraged and participated in the anti-china rally, which is most unacceptable to me. Is your president asking for an EU collective boycott of the opening ceremony? I don't think it would make anything better.

what i wanted to say is that it is a small group that where at the rally and that 99% of the french don't care much about china, tibet, not to forget that i really doubt more than 1/4 could place tibet correctly on a map.
when you tell "the french did riots to support tibet" it is a kind of funny, that is what i wanted to say in the first place. many protester went from all accross europe for exemple since Paris was the most easely reachable capital where you could protest without risk. st petersburg is not realy what i consider safe for protesters istanbul either, london is a bit farther.
the city concil respected the engagement they made : protect the flamme. this does not force them to change what they think. They effectivelly think tibet is not realy "free" . the good thing of free speech is that you can tel when you are for or against a cause. i don't see anything wrong in that.
we have a famous sentence here to tell the feeling of this : i'm against what you say, but i will fight for you to be able to say it. (je suis contre ce que vous dites mais je me battrais pour que vous puissiez le dire).
this does not mean that the city concil tell the peoples to do bad thing to the flamme, just that they support the tibet cause, from the dalai lama point of view.
on a reverse side, if you tell "free corsica" as i saw some chinese do to "reply" to this, i am not offended at all. i diseagree with you on this subject and we can discuss all you whant, but i don't see any problem for you to express what what you think, even if a deseagree with it.

to come back to the matter, the peoples that where at those celebration are not numerous and mostly are probably not even french. talking about "the french" is quite unapropriate

as for the boycott of the ceremony, seing the move that was made by the chinese governement with the talks to the dalai lama, i can bet that Sarkozy will not boycott anything

what i wanted to say is that it is a small group that where at the rally and that 99% of the french don't care much about china, tibet, not to forget that i really doubt more than 1/4 could place tibet correctly on a map.
when you tell "the french did riots to support tibet" it is a kind of funny, that is what i wanted to say in the first place. many protester went from all accross europe for exemple since Paris was the most easely reachable capital where you could protest without risk. st petersburg is not realy what i consider safe for protesters Wink istanbul either, london is a bit farther.
the city concil respected the engagement they made : protect the flamme. this does not force them to change what they think. They effectivelly think tibet is not realy "free" Wink. the good thing of free speech is that you can tel when you are for or against a cause. i don't see anything wrong in that.
we have a famous sentence here to tell the feeling of this : i'm against what you say, but i will fight for you to be able to say it. (je suis contre ce que vous dites mais je me battrais pour que vous puissiez le dire).
this does not mean that the city concil tell the peoples to do bad thing to the flamme, just that they support the tibet cause, from the dalai lama point of view.
on a reverse side, if you tell "free corsica" as i saw some chinese do to "reply" to this, i am not offended at all. i diseagree with you on this subject and we can discuss all you whant, but i don't see any problem for you to express what what you think, even if a deseagree with it.

to come back to the matter, the peoples that where at those celebration are not numerous and mostly are probably not even french. talking about "the french" is quite unapropriate

as for the boycott of the ceremony, seing the move that was made by the chinese governement with the talks to the dalai lama, i can bet that Sarkozy will not boycott anything.

>>>>>>>>> it maybe a valid point that Paris is more accessible for anti-china protesters around europe and some of those guys are not french. However, as i said before, the most striking thing is the open hostility from paris city council towards torch relay and china. You try to use free speech to defend paris city council, but it won't work. Simply because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. What paris city council did only prompt to rethink the value of "free speech". Free speech is not a magic cover for irresponsibility, hatred, racism and bigotry. I should remind you that there is no such thing as "free" speech. You can't yell "fire" in a packed theater, and it is illegal to deny the holocaust in Austria. Your defense for paris city council is even more shocking than its open hostility towards china. I don't see any sign that Paris city council showed any support for the free speech right of those supporting china and olympic torch. It seems that Paris city council cares only about the free speech right of tibetan and people who are anti-china. My friend, let me tell you: selective free speech right is not free speech. Torch replay had trouble in London, paris, San francisco and many other cities, but it encountered the most open hostility in Paris from Paris officials. Hostility, with or without the cover of free speech, will be countered by hostility, it is as basic as water and air.

free speech is, in france, that you can say almost what you think, no matter what. still there are some restriction as you say and they are in laws, but they are all to forbid someone to use free speech as a cover to provoque hate or discrimination.
that is all.
as for showing hostility, as i say, they respected what they promessed, but they still show what they think.
note that if it would had been a provocation incitating to racial hate or discrimination as you seems to imply, the chinese authorities would have the right to sue them in court, wich they did not. i don't think they would have waited a single second if they could have done it.
as for hostility they effectivelly did show hostility, remember that we had for a week or two in TV here with daily report of riots in lassah with open repression (by open i mean visible repression in TV), wether or not it is the truth, still we had it on tv, this does not tend to calm things before. i don't deny the hostility but i don't see anything wrong with it either. they did show what they think, they had the right to and on the contrary to you, i don't imagine restriction to free speech as you do. that you don't like their opinion is another matter. i don't see either anything wrong with it. nobody expect you to love it. they can say what they whant, you can dislike what they say and say it.
free speech that you cannot exercise is no free. i can go on the street here and shout "i love china" or "i hate china" or "fuck Sarkozy" or anything else, as long as i express my opinion (fire in a theatre is hardly an opinion, just a stupid thing to do ) and do not provoque callomnia (like "my neyghbour fuck animals" for instance) or racial hate.