East meets West - Forum France-Chine

shame on china -- the government

proud of chinese -- the poeple,though most of them are cheated by the government with media and internet controlled

proud of french -- both the government and the people,we love freedom as much as u,pls do more against the communist party--the only legal party to govern china.

i need and have to stand out&speak out with courage and english language,and with more technikal thing-- good-enough proxy software: tor or freegate or wujie or gpass or gtunnel ,etc,proxy technologies to come here,out side of china's control,to speak out what i know and what im thinking.

Well are you Chinese or French Banana? I suppose you're Chinese right?

By the way I can tell you there's nothing much to be proud of the French Government. They're acting pretty awfully those days. They do nothing (I mean really nothing, look at what UK and Germany said about both Tibet and the Olympics) but even though, they manage to have the Chinese believing that they are the vanguard of the Tibetan separatists, while they give the French the impression they're gonna lick every bit of mud out of their Chinese government counterparts' boots. Really, they managed a wonderful thing, to get hated by people who have completely different agendas, both at home and abroad...

many french people gave their surport on tibetan freedom and human-right,and some of them did it with a tibetan flag,but chinese people thought that meant the french surport tibet separation from china,that's a misundertand, i think. they showed tibet flag to surport the freedom and human-right ,and the tibetan traditional culture,mabye,but not separation.separation tibet from china is not right,in my opion.

and that man from CNN,Jack Cafferty said bad things to china,and again,chinese people misunderstood that he said that to chinese people.then he declared it was to the china government,not chinese people.but still,the chinese think it's so bad to know that someone is saying bad things to their government,to the communist party,cos they feel shamed on themselves when someone esp. foreigner say bad words to their government. they think the government stands for china,and china stands for chinese people. that's not right,i think,when the government do wrong,we don't have to surport the wrong point,instead,we should criticise the government to make it better.

loving china does not mean u have to love the government.
right is right and wrong is wrong.
loving china right means do not love the wrong government.

do the right thing and do against the wrong thing is good for most people.
surporting freedom and human-right is the right thing,to tibetans,to chinese,to french,to the world.
surporting despotic government and do against freedom of speach and religion is wrong,to french or chinese.


very glad to find this forum and to discuss with u,Le métèque salut!

I am sorry, but I am not buying your thoery. As you admitted it, you feel discomfort whenI say FK France. China is a country including its government and its people. You could mean both or one of them when you simply say China. Bottomline: if you want yourself to be well understood, use the correct language. I have no doubt some people will take advantage of this language ambiguity to ruin the image of chinese people. If any one is not willing to add one more word in their slogan, then I doubt their true purpose.

Maybe this perfect differentiation works for European, it does not work for Chinese and for American as you indicated. back in 2003, when french did not support the US invasion of Iraqi. French fries were renamed freedom fries in US capitol, and French resteraunts were harrassed even though most of the owners are Americans. I saw a picture of victorious US tank in iraq with the word " next: paris" painted on the side of the turret. I saw with my own eyes that people wrote in their own truck: nuke paris. French may have its own unique culture, I respect it, but french can't enforce its culture on other people.

I also believe that the government/institution can't be separated from the people sometimes. When nazi genmen defeated france (by you definition, it should mean frech government or french state institution), french people suffered. I am sure you have seen the picture taken when german soldier marched into france: a french man watched painfully with tears in his eyes. To this french man, I do not think the differentiation between government and people make any sense. The same for the Chinese. When Japan invaded in WW II, Chinese people paid for the failure of their government. Millions chinese civilian were murdered by Japanese.

Like it or not, the people and the society will be held responsible for the action of its government. This is especially true in democratic countries. I recognize that the government's decision does not always reflect people's will. But you will agree a democratic governement follows people's will in general. After all it is what the democrazy is about. There is no reason not to believe that french government acted according to french people's will.

You are right when you say " I think it has a lot to do with trying to know how the other thinks." I do really wish french people/government should think how their message would be perceived by the Chinese.


Quote:
Yes, but then? Chinese people can think whatever they want - they're not targeted because of what they think. Most French people don't agree with a lot of things happening in the US, on the religious agenda for instance - but we will not hunt those people for believing in something we don't, as long as they don't come here and start to make some mess. Most Chinese people may feel close to their government (actually nothing in your past education was ever done to make you feel you weren't, right? "中国共产党是中国工人阶级的先锋队，同时是中国人民和中华民族的先锋队，是中国特色社会主义事业的领导核心，代表中国先进生产力的发展要求，代表中国先进文化的前进方向，代表中国最广大人民的根本利益。etc..." ) but still they're not the one targeted here.
end of quote.

I have no idea what you try to say here. Are you suggesting that french can do whatever they want regarless what chinese think? Let me make it clear: the action of french government/ some french was perceived by many chinese as hostility towards them. That is why they fought back. You are trying too hard on this differentiation issue. If I burn down the french embassy in Beijing, don't you think many french people will be angry? But the french people are not targeted, so french people should not be angry.

If you are practicing what you believe, then why are you so worried about boycotting carrefour, you are not the owner of it or a major stake holder. You and french people are not targeted, carrefour is targetted.

OK, let me guess your mind. carrefour is targetted, because it is a french company. you perceived it as french people is targetted. As one individual of the french people, you feel you are targetted and you feel discomfort and puzzled because you did not do anything to the Chinese. See, you are not that different from Chinese.

Now tell me my guess is wrong.

As one individual of the french people, you feel you are targetted and you feel discomfort and puzzled because you did not do anything to the Chinese. See, you are not that different from Chinese.

Now tell me my guess is wrong.

Well the fact is that we can feel targeted, but nowhere near threatened by what the Chinese walking in front of Carrefour are thinking about France. I talked already about the "sugar" theory. The point is that some French are feeling frustrated by the way the torch relay was handled - but we're not blaming the Chinese for that, we're blaming our government that gave the Chinese security detail way too much authority in our own country, while not being able to protect the Chinese athletes either.
When we see people demonstrating in front of Carrefour and rallying around some far-fetched conspiracy theory, driven by some sort of huge internet scam, we/I do not feel worried at all about us. We feel worried about... you!

Like it or not, the people and the society will be held responsible for the action of its government. This is especially true in democratic countries. I recognize that the government's decision does not always reflect people's will. But you will agree a democratic governement follows people's will in general. After all it is what the democrazy is about. There is no reason not to believe that french government acted according to french people's will.

Then is there any reason why we should believe that China is acting according to the Chinese's People will then?
Understand my point - it's about knowing if your will is really yours - or what role the government played in your political education to make you believe everything they're doing is for your best...

I also believe that the government/institution can't be separated from the people sometimes. When nazi genmen defeated france (by you definition, it should mean frech government or french state institution), french people suffered. I am sure you have seen the picture taken when german soldier marched into france: a french man watched painfully with tears in his eyes. To this french man, I do not think the differentiation between government and people make any sense. The same for the Chinese. When Japan invaded in WW II, Chinese people paid for the failure of their government. Millions chinese civilian were murdered by Japanese.

Dear Luhua there's also something my Chinese interlocutors will never consider: people do evolve. We're not frozen into somekind of a XIXth century thinking - if we were, there would be no Europe today.

As for defeating a country, you don't understand my point: the French fought to defend their country - although badly led, they had something to do with it. Are you feeling like you're fighting for yours? Are you feeling attacked or something? If so, that would explain a lot of things, indeed. Because we're not feeling like we're attacking China as a whole - Governement, Territory, People and all - right now, that's why there's a differentiation in our mind.

If I burn down the french embassy in Beijing, don't you think many french people will be angry? But the french people are not targeted, so french people should not be angry.

Actually? They'll feel completely sorry about you...
You may start killing French people up there, we'll be waiting for the government to take actions. But you won't see us go around fuss with the Chinese restaurants outside, or start to attack Asian-looking people in the street. Actually, when we listen to these people outside Carrefour, we've got the strange taste that the Jin Jing accident was nothing but a good occasion to find some easy French scapegoat - and while we just actually don't give a fuck about China, the Olympics or Tibet, politically speking, if I may say, the ones among us most involved in the topic just worry about the fact that such pitiful events (because this event IS pitiful when compared to what happened thereafter) can still indeed, in 2008 China, trigger such discontent, on a pure nationalistic basis.

Actually, we sometimes wonder if you would act differently after a terrorist attack - because you REALLY make us wonder. As far as I know, we didn't start demonstrating at the front of every Kebab after Paris, Madrid or London bomb attacks. You are - and not because Chinese people got killed, nope - because Jin Jing, while not having the torch, was attacked on our ground by some foreigner who is violent a Tibet-sympathizer, while France is among the few countries who gave you every kind of authorizations needed so Chinese police could protect the Torch against our own regulations. Well, yes, indeed, we start to believe someone's having easy fun at our expense here.

I posted a new blog entry. Please feel free to comment

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Originally I wanted to write something about why the Chinese were angry, but eventually, seeing the reactions on the forum, looks like what was needed first was a clear report of the reasons why some French people were actually angry with the current situation.

Mind you, I actually believe they're not angry with the Chinese. You can ask other French about that. I think they mostly don't give a damn about anything happening in China at all. No, they're rather angry about the way their own authorities dealt with the torch relay, and about the kneeling of our leaders in front of their Chinese masters - while, arguably, they never said anything worse about China or Tibet that the German Chancellor or the British Premier didn't say first.

I am pretty sure you, my Chinese friends, saw a thousand times poor Jin Jing getting assaulted by every dumbass in the streets in Paris. Well firstly, you'd be wrong to believe those people were French - I suppose most of you already realized that a lot of those people were in London already, and for some of them found themselves in the US several days later to go on with the protests. As for these so called "Paris people don't like the Chinese", or "Paris people sleep with Dalai Lama" theories, I'd just like to underline that, attending myself a pro-tibetan rally two weeks before the torch relay to inquire about the situation, I can tell you pro-Tibet were lucky if there were more than 300-400 people down there that very day. And if it can re-assure you, during those days, the cops did everything they could to show the demonstrating people were not really welcomed. Can you believe that demonstrators, while the demonstration hadn't started yet, were forbidden by the cops to cross the streets buy cigarettes? That's the very reason why some people felt offended that day, and felt offended after the torch relay even more: because unlike what you seem to believe my dear Chinese friends, French cops actually did their utmost to please the Chinese authorities, before, during, and after the Torch relay, giving some French here the disgraceful taste of surrendering our sovereignty for a couple hours. And that's something they are being reproached with.

But let's get back to the main controversy.
I am pretty sure you didn't see the following videos - well my Chinese friends in China didn't, and that's understandable. Although the coverage by the Western medias of the whole crisis was pretty much bad and completely unprofessional, still, we've got enough rough data to make ourselves our own opinion. We all saw Jin Jing and we're all very sorry about her and the way she was treated. But please allow us to show you something else now:



1) Ok basically, what do we have now? David Douillet, a most famous French judo olympic champion, who is carrying the torch, and comments the videos after the events. As you probably guess, he didn't like the way the Chinese cops were handling him - actually, he's a pretty calm man. Some of us would certainely have rejoiced at the idea that he may have sent a couple blue-men fly in the blue sky, out of frustration. But fortunately, he kept very calm from the beginning to the end - and you'll see he must be given credit for that.
Thereafter, they get in the courtyard of Canal + (French channel four) where he must transmit the torch to Teddy Riner, another french Judoka. Then, it happens.
We still don't know what was going on. Pro-Tibet demonstrators were far away. They were not even in the courtyard - apparently, they got distanced by the torch relay, probably thanks to the motorized part of the relay. And then, for no apparent reasons, the Chinese cop receives an order and puts out Douillet's flame. Then, he heads back to the other direction, to get together with his group, and everybody leaves both champions here, like they were a couple suckers. And man, being a sucker sucks - now I don't want to know how you'd feel about that yourself, but I wouldn't like that.
Eventually, Douillet had to run, get to the cops, take away a torch they had lightened up, and tell the Chinese detail that he was giving it back to M.Riner, because HE'S the torch-bearer. Do you think the French liked what happened? Wait to see what happened to a journalist, earlier in the day, and you'll understand why some French citizen have reasons to feel pissed off about the French authorities allowing the Chinese to deal with the security...

http://www.wat.tv/video/jo-journaliste-fr2-vire-sur-khol_j6ji_.html
(click on the link to watch the video)

2) And what is this now?
The man filming the whole scene is an official cameraman from France 2 (France Channel 2) which is a public channel, among the two most important TV channels in France. With the torch getting back into a bus under Chinese surveillance because of the pro-tibetan demonstrators, he starts to film around. What happens next? His Chinese colleagues are not happy with his behavior, as he's filming the demonstrators and filming themselves as there is no torch anymore at this very moment - while the Chinese cameramen simply stopped filming. They call their own security service to get rid of him, although he had all the accreditations needed (or he wouldn't be in the truck at all in the first place). The French cameraman, knowing his rights, would only accept to get removed by anyone else but a French policeman. He believes the Chinese will not bother asking the French police to remove him, as he believes this would be absolutely outrageous - as he broke no rule, he's got the needed clearance, and that under any circumstances, the French policemen are not supposed to take orders from the Chinese. Technically, he's right. But factually, he isn't: without even double checking the ID, the French policeman obeys the Chinese security detail orders, and removes a rightful French citizen and journalist from the press truck.

Now tell me how would YOU feel if such thing had happened in China? Imagine that the Olympics happen in France, and that the torch relays goes through Beijing. First of all, would China accept French policemen to be in charge, while this torch is going through your country? Let's say they would, even if I seriously doubt it. Now, what happens if some French cop, in the view of everyone, orders a Chinese cop to get rid of a Chinese journalist because he didn't like him?
And then, imagine Jin Jing instead of David Douillet, carrying the torch through Beijing, being grabbed along the way (not that gently) by the French cops until she finally reaches the frontdoor of CCTV, in order to pass the torch to Yao Ming (for instance). The moment Jin Jing is going to give the torch to Yao Ming in front of the cameras, suddenly you see another French cop jumping in front of her yelling stuff without caring about her. He puts out the flame, takes the torch, then give it back, and goes running in the other direction, without even a last stare at the sportsmen - now tell me about "losing face". Tell me, honestly, if the things that happened in those videos were happening in China, wouldn't they trigger, the following day, crowds of people in front of every Carrefour in China and calls to boycott, just like now? The funnier in that is that the Chinese could be talking about whatever Corsican , Britannian or Caledonian independence or talks at the same time, the French would hardly give a shit, believe me. When we don't want some foreign government to get involved in our stuff, we tell him to mind his own business. THIS is what we call pride.

And tell me now, where are my fellow French netizens today? Last time Ive been to a Chinese restaurant, Ive seen no-one standing outside to block me, or anything. Why aren't they in the street right now, shouting around, disgusted by the Chinese complete disrespect of our sportsmen and our journalists?

Our minds are arguably not working the same way. Maybe the French are wrong and should go down the street and start bashing China for trampling underfoot French sovereignty. Or maybe the Chinese should go back home, take a big breath, and try to consider the fact that pride may not be about black-mailing another country when something doesn't please you, or just to satisfy one's frustrated hubris on some convenient scapegoat.

If the Chinese believe they have any effect on the French right now, I can tell you, our feeling have nothing to do with fear, nor shame. The only French people I know who express feelings about what is happening between France and China are either disappointed, or - more simply put - pity the Chinese. Arguably, they thought the Chinese were well over that kind of hate-reactions already. Should they be proven wrong any longer?

Ask yourself this question my dear Chinese friends, what matters most to you in this crisis: is it about what other people truly think of the Chinese, or about what you think other people should think of the Chinese? Because right now, I can answer both problematics at once: currently, either other people are disappointed about you, or you want to think that other people really hate you.
Either way, it doesn't really matter after all - because I can tell you that in both cases, we're not going anywhere...

Well the fact is that we can feel targeted, but nowhere near threatened by what the Chinese walking in front of Carrefour are thinking about France. I talked already about the "sugar" theory. The point is that some French are feeling frustrated by the way the torch relay was handled - but we're not blaming the Chinese for that, we're blaming our government that gave the Chinese security detail way too much authority in our own country, while not being able to protect the Chinese athletes either.
When we see people demonstrating in front of Carrefour and rallying around some far-fetched conspiracy theory, driven by some sort of huge internet scam, we/I do not feel worried at all about us. We feel worried about... you!
>>>>>>>>> You have to understand people have to right to rally in a peaceful way. The people walking in front of carrefour really should not worry you even though Chinese government usually don't permit people to rally in mass. But nowadays, chinese rally anyway to protest land dispute, low salary without permit. Looks like some french are hurt by seeing the torch guard. But why? I think the guard were in the right place. If Paris city council did not encouraged the anti-china rally (don't deny this), french police would act more forcefully, then the guard need not to be there. The Chinese government anticipated the anti-china sentiment in west countries, that is why the torch guards were sent to protect the torch. The guard did not have more authority than citizen's arrest. Why are you worried about me? Don't you have anything domestic to worry? I'd like to hear more about your conspiracy theory.

I posted a new blog entry. Please feel free to comment Smile

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Originally I wanted to write something about why the Chinese were angry, but eventually, seeing the reactions on the forum, looks like what was needed first was a clear report of the reasons why some French people were actually angry with the current situation.

>>>>>>>> fair enough, I am curious too.

Mind you, I actually believe they're not angry with the Chinese. You can ask other French about that. I think they mostly don't give a damn about anything happening in China at all. No, they're rather angry about the way their own authorities dealt with the torch relay, and about the kneeling of our leaders in front of their Chinese masters - while, arguably, they never said anything worse about China or Tibet that the German Chancellor or the British Premier didn't say first.
>>>>>>> So the Chinese (government?) are the masters? Many Chinese would think the french are bullies. I admit that German media acted very badly, the anti-chinese sentiment is obvious based on what I read. But, what do you expect from the country where Hilter was born? However, the torch relay disruption in London was not as bad as in Paris. There are much more french participated in the anti-china rally in paris. The worst of all, paris city council was very hostile to China or chinese government if you wish to say so. They purposely hang the tibet flag in city hall as a special way to welcome to torch relay, they awarded honorary citizenship to dalai a few days ago.

I am pretty sure you, my Chinese friends, saw a thousand times poor Jin Jing getting assaulted by every dumbass in the streets in Paris. Well firstly, you'd be wrong to believe those people were French - I suppose most of you already realized that a lot of those people were in London already, and for some of them found themselves in the US several days later to go on with the protests. As for these so called "Paris people don't like the Chinese", or "Paris people sleep with Dalai Lama" theories, I'd just like to underline that, attending myself a pro-tibetan rally two weeks before the torch relay to inquire about the situation, I can tell you pro-Tibet were lucky if there were more than 300-400 people down there that very day. And if it can re-assure you, during those days, the cops did everything they could to show the demonstrating people were not really welcomed. Can you believe that demonstrators, while the demonstration hadn't started yet, were forbidden by the cops to cross the streets buy cigarettes? That's the very reason why some people felt offended that day, and felt offended after the torch relay even more: because unlike what you seem to believe my dear Chinese friends, French cops actually did their utmost to please the Chinese authorities, before, during, and after the Torch relay, giving some French here the disgraceful taste of surrendering our sovereignty for a couple hours. And that's something they are being reproached with.
>>>>>>>>>> of course, the guy attacked jinjin doesn't look like french at all. But you have to admit, this guy was not prosecuted, not in london, not in paris, not in US. You should not deny there is a lot of sympathy among many frenches towards dalai and tibetan independence movement. I was not in paris, but it was reported there are a lot of french in the anti-china rally.

But let's get back to the main controversy.
I am pretty sure you didn't see the following videos - well my Chinese friends in China didn't, and that's understandable. Although the coverage by the Western medias of the whole crisis was pretty much bad and completely unprofessional, still, we've got enough rough data to make ourselves our own opinion. We all saw Jin Jing and we're all very sorry about her and the way she was treated. But please allow us to show you something else now:



1) Ok basically, what do we have now? David Douillet, a most famous French judo olympic champion, who is carrying the torch, and comments the videos after the events. As you probably guess, he didn't like the way the Chinese cops were handling him - actually, he's a pretty calm man. Some of us would certainely have rejoiced at the idea that he may have sent a couple blue-men fly in the blue sky, out of frustration. But fortunately, he kept very calm from the beginning to the end - and you'll see he must be given credit for that.
Thereafter, they get in the courtyard of Canal + (French channel four) where he must transmit the torch to Teddy Riner, another french Judoka. Then, it happens.
We still don't know what was going on. Pro-Tibet demonstrators were far away. They were not even in the courtyard - apparently, they got distanced by the torch relay, probably thanks to the motorized part of the relay. And then, for no apparent reasons, the Chinese cop receives an order and puts out Douillet's flame. Then, he heads back to the other direction, to get together with his group, and everybody leaves both champions here, like they were a couple suckers. And man, being a sucker sucks - now I don't want to know how you'd feel about that yourself, but I wouldn't like that.
Eventually, Douillet had to run, get to the cops, take away a torch they had lightened up, and tell the Chinese detail that he was giving it back to M.Riner, because HE'S the torch-bearer. Do you think the French liked what happened? Wait to see what happened to a journalist, earlier in the day, and you'll understand why some French citizen have reasons to feel pissed off about the French authorities allowing the Chinese to deal with the security...
>>>>>>>> I didn't see the video, but based on what you described. I believe this is what happened: the torch was going to the paris city council square (sorry, I read the report in Chinese, it is hard to translate back to English) where the paris officials already prepared to show their support to dalia and tibet indpendence by hanging the tibet flag on the city hall. So the Chinese organizer decided to skip it and jump to the next relay.
It wasn't very polite for the torch guard to just extinguish the flame and leave the torch bearer puzzled, but it was the right thing to skip the city hall square. It was very inappropriate for the paris city council to do it. as the city receiving torch relay, it should at least show some respect to the torch relay organizer, i.e the chinese.

>>>>>>>> of course, french did not like this, me neither. BUT, the chinese will not accept the humiliation by letting torch going through the city hall square where french politicians were all ready to condemn china. The chinese is ok with the anti-china demonstration by individuals, but not OK with the open hostility from paris city council. If there is anyone to blame, it is the paris city council.

(click on the link to watch the video)

2) And what is this now?
The man filming the whole scene is an official cameraman from France 2 (France Channel 2) which is a public channel, among the two most important TV channels in France. With the torch getting back into a bus under Chinese surveillance because of the pro-tibetan demonstrators, he starts to film around. What happens next? His Chinese colleagues are not happy with his behavior, as he's filming the demonstrators and filming themselves as there is no torch anymore at this very moment - while the Chinese cameramen simply stopped filming. They call their own security service to get rid of him, although he had all the accreditations needed (or he wouldn't be in the truck at all in the first place). The French cameraman, knowing his rights, would only accept to get removed by anyone else but a French policeman. He believes the Chinese will not bother asking the French police to remove him, as he believes this would be absolutely outrageous - as he broke no rule, he's got the needed clearance, and that under any circumstances, the French policemen are not supposed to take orders from the Chinese. Technically, he's right. But factually, he isn't: without even double checking the ID, the French policeman obeys the Chinese security detail orders, and removes a rightful French citizen and journalist from the press truck.
>>>>>>>> it all depends on the agreement between the french channel and the torch replay organizer. If the Chinese paid for the bus, they may have the right to ask that guy to leave, but it is not a nice thing to do and I don't think they should do it after they allow the channel 2 guy on bus.

Now tell me how would YOU feel if such thing had happened in China? Imagine that the Olympics happen in France, and that the torch relays goes through Beijing. First of all, would China accept French policemen to be in charge, while this torch is going through your country? Let's say they would, even if I seriously doubt it. Now, what happens if some French cop, in the view of everyone, orders a Chinese cop to get rid of a Chinese journalist because he didn't like him?
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the Chinese will accept French cops as the torch guard but they won't have the authority as local cops have. Torch guard is not something invented by Chinese and France agreed to have the torch guard. it really doesn't matter what those guards do in china? Cops or not, they went to france as torch guard, not as cops. As to the second question, you won't see demonstrations as bad as in paris which caused the chinese official to be infuriated. As I said earlier, it is not a nice thing to do, and i don't like it.

And then, imagine Jin Jing instead of David Douillet, carrying the torch through Beijing, being grabbed along the way (not that gently) by the French cops until she finally reaches the frontdoor of CCTV, in order to pass the torch to Yao Ming (for instance). The moment Jin Jing is going to give the torch to Yao Ming in front of the cameras, suddenly you see another French cop jumping in front of her yelling stuff without caring about her. He puts out the flame, takes the torch, then give it back, and goes running in the other direction, without even a last stare at the sportsmen - now tell me about "losing face".
>>>>>>>> I have explained this earlier. First, Chinese will not show open hostility to french if we agree to have the torch relay. Second, if the CCTV building is all covered by signs like "Free Cosica", or "Shame on paris","free the muslim", and the chinese politicians are ready to condemn France's human right record, then I think French is free to change the route of the torch relay. About face, if you don't give people face, then you don't deserve face.

Tell me, honestly, if the things that happened in those videos were happening in China, wouldn't they trigger, the following day, crowds of people in front of every Carrefour in China and calls to boycott, just like now? The funnier in that is that the Chinese could be talking about whatever Corsican , Britannian or Caledonian independence or talks at the same time, the French would hardly give a shit, believe me. When we don't want some foreign government to get involved in our stuff, we tell him to mind his own business. THIS is what we call pride.
>>>>>>>> The Chinese will not let anyone interrupt the torch relay, period. My friend, you missed the context of what happened. The torch relay was mobbed in London and Paris by well-organized, local government supported anti-china, sometimes violent demonstrations. Some of the torch bearer are not trust-worthy, they tried to show some kind of sign of tibet or dalai which they should not do because they signed a code of conduct (not to display any political or religious sign) before the torch relay. The Chinese are not prefect, but I understand what they did under these circumstances. Especially EU politicians didn't miss any chance to trash china. Maybe corsica is not a problem any more, but how about the muslims. Don't tell me it is not a problem. Chinese have told you guys many times to mind your own business, but your guys would not listen. You take pride in tell foreign government go away, but you take pride also in interferring other country's internal affair?

And tell me now, where are my fellow French netizens today? Last time Ive been to a Chinese restaurant, Ive seen no-one standing outside to block me, or anything. Why aren't they in the street right now, shouting around, disgusted by the Chinese complete disrespect of our sportsmen and our journalists?
>>>>>>>> My friend, your fellow french already did on the streets of Paris when the torch relay came! Some of your countryman did it when our leaders visit your country. I know some of these guys may get paid, but they need a rest too. So let them rest before their next big operation. The chinese did not take it to street when a couple of newly-wed were strip-searched in Lafayette because they were suspected of using fake Euroes (they used the real euro). The chinese did not take it to the street when legal chinese travelers were detained in paris airport for no reason. I guess it is time for the chinese to be on street.


Our minds are arguably not working the same way. Maybe the French are wrong and should go down the street and start bashing China for trampling underfoot French sovereignty. Or maybe the Chinese should go back home, take a big breath, and try to consider the fact that pride may not be about black-mailing another country when something doesn't please you, or just to satisfy one's frustrated hubris on some convenient scapegoat.
>>>>>>>> I think it is french balckmailing china. france and its europe brothers used human right to black mail china all the time. Ironically, it was these countries invaded China more than 100 years ago. And its consequence still felt by many Chinese. Chinese never had any Chinese concession in any French city, but France had french concession in many french cities. Maybe french should calm down and realize that France is not the master anymore and learn to respect other people?

If the Chinese believe they have any effect on the French right now, I can tell you, our feeling have nothing to do with fear, nor shame. The only French people I know who express feelings about what is happening between France and China are either disappointed, or - more simply put - pity the Chinese. Arguably, they thought the Chinese were well over that kind of hate-reactions already. Should they be proven wrong any longer?
>>>>>>>> French and Chinese will live well without each other. If french don't want to be bothered by chinese, then please don't bother chinese.

Ask yourself this question my dear Chinese friends, what matters most to you in this crisis: is it about what other people truly think of the Chinese, or about what you think other people should think of the Chinese? Because right now, I can answer both problematics at once: currently, either other people are disappointed about you, or you want to think that other people really hate you.
>>>>>>>>> I think the more important thing is how we look at ourselves and what we expect out of ourselves. I can't control what other people think of Chinese. They can think whatever they want, but don't piss other people off. Just like many whites may think blacks are stupid, just don't say it. Otherwise, you may end in trouble.


Either way, it doesn't really matter after all - because I can tell you that in both cases, we're not going anywhere...
>>>>>>>> Do we need to go anywhere? Really, life is hard enough, don't make it harder.

Le meteque,

HOw can i use the edit function? I don't usually proofread my message, it has some typos sometime. It would be convenient to be able to edit the message.

Le métèque - Admin wrote:Just to put it more simply, because I recognize I wasn't that clear: to me the way to "attack" others relates a lot to your own perception of your country and government. The average French doesn't feel exactly bonded to his government, even though he took a large role electing parts of it - so you can't expect him to believe it's not working the same way elsewhere. The average Chinese does not make the same differentiation and tends to side with its government for every topics that relate to China's prestige, even though he took little part electing it - so you can't expect him to believe it's not working the same way elsewhere.

To be more precise and hopefully more understandable from the opposite point of view, I'd say that there's a big culture of dissent in France. Even more, dissing your government is a national sport, and Sarkozy got more than his fair share since he's in charge, even when he was popular at the beginning, much less so now. Diverging, minority activist views will often have a much bigger representation in the media than their actual representativity of the population's opinion.

People who believe that they get an accurate idea on foreign opinions through the media are just naive. That counts for France as for China as for any other country. Not everyone rallies for Tibet in Paris, it's a ridiculous minority, just like not everyone rallies in front of Carrefour in China. To think that one demonstrator represents the whole country... sorry but I can only laugh at that suggestion, yet that's what many people believe, otherwise they would be noone in front of Carrefour shops, and noone in any of the nationalistic mobs that spawn here and there when people feel their country honour is attacked (chinese people have no monopoly on that kind of behaviour, I dunno if it's a satisfying thought or not...).

Reality is : most people don't give a fuck about what's happening elsewhere. What does interest french people indeed, Le Métèque has already described it : the fact that the french government, far from showing disrespect to the PRC, has entirely given in its requests : allowing foreign agents do police job on french territory, allowing media control on french territory, not saying an official word on chinese policy in Tibet, etc. That is that hypocrisy that is denounced by french people, and they identify it with the main objective of the french government regarding China, which has nothing to do with human rights, or the olympic values or the rights of the tibetan people, but everything with getting contracts to sell Airbus and such products, and to implement more french companies in China.

I do not agree with the way Le Métèque presents the national pride à la french. People do get offended when foreign people attack "La France" : french people are not known for their touchiness for nothing. Also, not every french individual makes the distinction between foreign people and their government : regarding the US for instance, you'll hear many french people giving in the stereotype on the american guy : fat, obnoxious, overly religious, etc. and making links with the reasons why the Bush administration has been in charge for 8 years.

The main difference is the way the news issues are dealt : either one of those categories : internal or international issues. Everything involving the US is an international issue, and most of the people will unite against, or aside, *with* or *not with* them, but in any way the american point of view (or its caricature) is taken in consideration. Different partners are identified, and France as a whole is one of them.
Beijing's Olympics, Tibet, the chinese issue in general... maybe it will sound weird, but those are considered french internal issues. Most of the time, people will ignore the chinese view, or the tibetan one. What is at stake is the different stances competing political groups, competing politicians, comepting activists will take. The debate won't happen between chinese people and french people, or chinese government and french government, but between french people on the pretext of chinese issues. The council of Paris decided to make a honoured citizen of the dalai-lama? What a symbolic move... towards Sarkozy's government! Because it's the way it is interpreted : the Mayor of Paris didn't take this decision because he really defends the tibetan cause, but because he's a prominent member of the political opposition to Sarkozy. Same with the debate on the boycott of the Olympics : some activists will demand it while others will demand an economical boycott, denouncing the mere hypocrisy of a boycott that would be only symbolic and wouldn't deal with the important issues ($$$, working conditions in chinese factories...). What is at stake here is whether you're a real activist or not (either you demand something symbolic and somewhat feasible, either you demand something effective but unfeasible); in anyway that's good because you oppose sarkozy's government that wants boths a french participation without angrying the chinese officials and an increased french economical involvement in China.
The actual opinion of the average chinese? Ignored, or constructed according to the convenience of the speaker.

Another thing is the way french people actually perceive China. To them, in a 'thought shortcut' and only if ever they come to have a say on the matter, which is very rare since they won't think about it spontaneously, the PRC being a dictatorship, they will assume that the chinese people don't agree with their government. So when a minority group attacks the PRC government on human rights or Tibet or anything, people will assume that they attack only the government and the bulk of the chinese people would agree with them if only they were allowed to express their opinion, which would be concealed yet because of the totalitarian nature of the chinese regime. I think that there is a lot of naivety in this image, but be sure it is very pervasive in the western mindset (not only the french one). So i must say people are very surprized to see chinese citizens reacting like they do, even more westernized chinese individuals; a lot of people actually do think that they're manipulated by their government, and won't accept the idea that these reactions are genuine or have a part of genuineness.

So my guess is that everything in the dissensus between the West and China revolves around the way people conceive the essence of democracy. French people more particularly will accept democracy as the expression of dissent : a country is not so much democratic because the people elect its representatives than because you are free to criticize them once elected. In regimes like the PRC, I'd say that democracy is seen more like the way the people will be bonded to its government, so you have to present a united front against the rest of the world. Both parts simply cannot comprehend the other's view.

For the Chinese, if the french goverment has allowed such demonstrations like the one in Paris, it is because Sarkozy and his likes were sympathetic with the demonstrators, which is plainly ridiculous from a western point of view, since it is the opposite that is denounced by the demonstrators themselves! Yes people can make public acts without the government agreeing to them. I'd say that 95% of the demonstrations in France do contest the government instead of supporting it or being supported by it. I think that's what freaks out chinese demonstrators the most, otherwise they would have directed their attacks against the british or german governments instead, coz they are the ones who have taken a stance against the PRC's policies, not the french! There's an inconsistency here that is lightly forgotten in the nationalistic frenzy.
(of course when i say 'nationalistic' it has nothing to do with Taiwan's 'nationalist' regime, it's just in the larger acception of the word)

For the French and the other western people in general, it's very simple : they can't accept that chinese people support their country, that is their regime. They think that the chinese (assumed) distaste for their regime should be stronger than their patriotic love.

Well now, if you have a problem with anything I said in my long post, that's a sign there's still a problem of communication which means that I'm right on this issue anyway

Le meteque,

HOw can i use the edit function? I don't usually proofread my message, it has some typos sometime. It would be convenient to be able to edit the message.

Dear Luhua, you have to sign up as a forum member if you want to be able to edit your own message
(otherwise if visitors could edit messages, anyone could start to edit yours, and you wouldn't like it right ^^)

Pe Luo wrote: (.../...)For the French and the other western people in general, it's very simple : they can't accept that chinese people support their country, that is their regime. They think that the chinese (assumed) distaste for their regime should be stronger than their patriotic love.
(.../...)

Thanks for that point of view. That's not the kind of things we are used to hear here. Here, when someone likes the central power, he doesn't protest. Seems like China is the reverse(If I read you well).

Which explains first the reactions when there was some kind of unrest in Lhassa : from a Chinese point of view, this should NOT happen. From a french point of view, it's the way things happen, & fighting it so harsh should NOT happen.

Or did I miss something?

Le meteque emphasized the serapation of government and people in french culture. But as he described why french was angry. It revealed that french is not that diferent from Chinese on this issue.

The incidents he described clearly has no indication that it was done against french people. More specifically, it occured becuase the chinese officials were not happy with paris city council and the france channel 2 camera man. If french is good at separation of governemtn and people, then there is no reason for them to be angry.

It is interesting that le meteque used the word sovereignty. If french considered the presence of torch guard as violation of french sovereignty, should not Chinese perceive the violent free tibet demonstration and active support for tibet independence violation of chinese sovereignty?

It is true that there are more demonstration and expression of different opinions in france, but it doesn't gurantee french would be more accepting on the issues of "us" vs "them" than Chinese.

Pe Luo wrote:
(.../...)For the French and the other western people in general, it's very simple : they can't accept that chinese people support their country, that is their regime. They think that the chinese (assumed) distaste for their regime should be stronger than their patriotic love.
(.../...)


Thanks for that point of view. That's not the kind of things we are used to hear here. Here, when someone likes the central power, he doesn't protest. Seems like China is the reverse(If I read you well).

Which explains first the reactions when there was some kind of unrest in Lhassa : from a Chinese point of view, this should NOT happen. From a french point of view, it's the way things happen, & fighting it so harsh should NOT happen.

Or did I miss something?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well, I think you missed a lot. If france is invaded by German again, I believe most french would fight for france even though the french government imaybe unpopular. French will fight for their country, not for their government although the fight would be led by the government they may not like. Why is it so hard for french to understand? Are you suggesting that french think it is OK for protester to burn shops and kill innocent by-passers on street? I have no problem for people to protest, but i have zero tolerance for looting, arson and killing which was exactly what happeded in Lhasa. More than a dozen civilian were killed including innocent tibetans by the mob. The first video clips released were actually from west tourists who witnessed it. I guess your media simply told you lots of people were killed in a demonstration cracked down by Chinese, which misled you to think people were all killed in the crack down. You have to give credit to these spin masters for doing such a good job. You can't even sue them because they didn't lie. If you got the wrong information from their coverage, it is you who made the wrong interpretation.