Why so many French attended the anti-China protest?

I have seen the question from French, maybe it is fair to ask my Chinese question: Why so many French don't like China?

Torch relay was interrupted in many cities, no big deal. But it was the worst in Paris. And the Paris city government is most hostile China. Recently, Paris just awarded the title of honorary citizen to Dalai. Are these people too ignorant or too stupid? It is fair to say that French (at least some, even many in the government) encouraged all the anti-China protest. Hostility will be treated with hostility, it is as natural as breathing the air.


Some French need to understand that you can't boss people around, let alone Paris has the Muslim youth problem.

I have seen the question from French, maybe it is fair to ask my Chinese question: Why so many French don't like China?

That's a good question. Although I had planned to make tomorrow's post about rather why the Chinese were so angry after the French, I think I'll rather start by the opposite.
That's a long story. But for a start, I can tell you French do not dislike China - and that's the greater part of the deal already. Mostly because the French tend to draw easily a line between a government and its people (something the Chinese actually don't for cultural reasons) an apply the same schematics to every other nation; secondarily the discontent is mainly for reasons that you couldn't expect Xinhua or CCTV to relay, while eventually, even though French medias are crap (I gave my opinion about that already), especially when they report about things they don't know nothing at all about just like in Tibet, they gave us sufficient media coverage to realize the reasons why both the French AND the Chinese are currently at odds with each other. I'll do my best to show the main pieces of French "discontent" following the Paris events.

I'll post the rest tomorrow, got to go to bed. But hopefully some other French will come to give his/her own opinion (which may be quite different from mine, but we're here to listen to everyone right?)

Thanks again for posting!

To Le métèque:

I am not sure French consciously differentiate Chinese government from Chinese people. I personally felt it is a very hard thing to do. And I don't believe it is culture difference. After all, those anti-China protesters shouted "shame on China", not "shame on Chinese government".

I guess we will have to poll to see what the percentage of french is who don't like China. Are you suggesting those french on the street of Paris were a biased sample of french and the silent majority do like (or at least not dislike China)? I think most french simple don't care, China is thousands miles away from France and probably has little to do with their daily life.

I don't know if French media is crap or not, but you can't deny that their coverage is very favorable to Dalai and his followers. The western media didn't think twice before blaming Chinese for everything and describing Dailai as the victim.

I haven't seen CCTV for a long time, and my impression is that you usually don't see much negative news about France and European countries.

luhua773 wrote: After all, those anti-China protesters shouted "shame on China", not "shame on Chinese government".

Some people also yelled "Get out of France" to Chinese students.

After all, those anti-China protesters shouted "shame on China", not "shame on Chinese government".

Well because "China" doesn't stand for "the Chinese people" dear
If they were after the Chinese, they wouldn't have said China, again. It's not like those people believed in any way that you are personally responsible for occupying Tibet or whatever they may think.
When the French are referring to China, they mostly refer to its institutions, I can positively say so. But of course, there are dicks everywhere. Being in demonstrations myself and witnessing pro-tibetan demonstrations too, I can tell you you find many, many different people out there, with quite different motives.

Are you suggesting those french on the street of Paris were a biased sample of french and the silent majority do like (or at least not dislike China)? I think most french simple don't care, China is thousands miles away from France and probably has little to do with their daily life.

Yes that was exactly my point. Most French simply don't care. Or may care about Chinese food, maybe, at best

I haven't seen CCTV for a long time, and my impression is that you usually don't see much negative news about France and European countries.

Nope - it's not about really negative news actually - it is about not showing all the stuff. That's the difference with foreign medias, which absolutely want to show everything they can, even when it is not true. In a word, the problem in China is that Xinhua shouldn't restrain info - the problem in the West is that the f*cking media should learn to restrain themselves, and keep quiet when they've got nothing to say or show, stop inventing it if they lack it, or ask the people who know. Truly your following statement is right, and should serve as a proof of the medias complete stupidity.

The western media didn't think twice before blaming Chinese for everything and describing Dailai as the victim.

yep. For a start they should have tried to even listen to the Dalai actually. I think the Dalai was - paradoxically - a much better source of information than my own medias. Why? Because during the riot outbreak in Lassah, he denounced them. He denounced the whole torch-disrupting stuff too. Why? Because he knows the people who did that are on the wrong side of the fence, and they're giving a bad image to the Tibetan-separatist movement because of their violence and their extremism. If western media had ONE bit of good sense, they would have understood that IF the Dalai Lama is NOT supporting the riots in Lassah, it is because the Tibetan rioters actually did some pretty bad things there. But well, my medias never learn...

Some people also yelled "Get out of France" to Chinese students.

Well, assholes are everywhere. If tomorrow people are demonstrating because of something happening in Africa, and some others yell "go back home you Niggers!", does it make France a black-hater country? I doubt it.

Again, the power of the images and the media are horrible - so let's keep our heads cool in here, at least.

to Admin:

ZXB(中宣部) is the propaganda department of CCP. If you read Chinese weblogs and forums, it is the general consensus that CCP collect all their idiots and dump them in ZXB. As reported by BBC, ZXB does not a low any bad image of this torch relay been showed on Chinese TV.

Again, I could be wrong (damn bbc!). But if this is the case, ZXB actually did French people a huge favor. Right now all this boycott stuff is incited by a few leaked websites, imagine what a 10 minute realtime video will do to Chinese people.

website for u for true news about china--not chinese government website
chinese:guancha.org/info/index.asp
english:guancha.org/info_eng/Index.asp
there are stories and news about china --the people and the government

u will get some answers about the question

chinese:xizang-zhiye.org/
english:xizang-zhiye.org/xz/

i will come back with more websites out of control of china-the government,the Party,u know

scott1 wrote:to Admin:

ZXB(中宣部) is the propaganda department of CCP. If you read Chinese weblogs and forums, it is the general consensus that CCP collect all their idiots and dump them in ZXB. As reported by BBC, ZXB does not a low any bad image of this torch relay been showed on Chinese TV.

Again, I could be wrong (damn bbc!). But if this is the case, ZXB actually did French people a huge favor. Right now all this boycott stuff is incited by a few leaked websites, imagine what a 10 minute realtime video will do to Chinese people.

Well as you know Scott the Jin Jing related data didn't need ZXB to spread over the medias - actually, it traveled though other channels, and even though Xinhua is supposed to filter everything going in and out, you know they do it on a limited scale. Well they may not allowed for this kind of info to go through - unfortunately, they didn't allow for the rest of the info (mainly the reasons why the French were pissed off) to go through either - and this info didn't traveled as well as the Jin Jing pictures and videos on third-party websites, unfortunately (even though that's arguably less important news). I will try to provide the needed videos and links to my blog entry.

As you say, what scares me most is that everything happening now started because of a fuss incited - mainly - by some Internet actors...

Hi Admin,

I admire your courage and effort trying to build a bridge at this difficult time. I assure you that while most overseas Chinese are as crazy as I am, there are many that are not. They are more willing to forgive. If we use analogy based on US politics, overseas Chinese are largely 'right wing', and those in mainland are more 'left'.

Unfortunately, the little piece of FLG just ruined it. You probably won't see any more reason here in your forum, and hence I am leaving. BTW, the website you visited "wforum.com" is banned in China because it incites (as you called it) nationalism. Again, people in China are not THAT crazy.

Don't be scared. Go visit China if you get the chance. You will see extreme poverty and extreme luxury. Well, if you don't look very hard you won't get to see extreme poverty. The number of poor people are decreasing and usually, they are poor because they live in difficult-to-access areas. Either way, talk to them. We LOVE foreigners who speaks Chinese.

If I scared you, my apologies. That WAS my intension. Now I just want to wish you good luck.

Au revoir

I admire your courage and effort trying to build a bridge at this difficult time.

Thank you

the little piece of FLG just ruined it.

? What is FLG?

If I scared you, my apologies. That WAS my intension. Now I just want to wish you good luck.

You didn't of course! There's no problem at all
If you're talking about the topic Ive trashed, I trashed it because of Banana's stuff - not yours!

Don't be scared. Go visit China if you get the chance. You will see extreme poverty and extreme luxury. Well, if you don't look very hard you won't get to see extreme poverty. The number of poor people are decreasing and usually, they are poor because they live in difficult-to-access areas. Either way, talk to them. We LOVE foreigners who speaks Chinese.

Been there two years
but yes I can only agree

To le meteque.


After all, those anti-China protesters shouted "shame on China", not "shame on Chinese government".


Well because "China" doesn't stand for "the Chinese people" dear
If they were after the Chinese, they wouldn't have said China, again. It's not like those people believed in any way that you are personally responsible for occupying Tibet or whatever they may think.
When the French are referring to China, they mostly refer to its institutions, I can positively say so. But of course, there are dicks everywhere. Being in demonstrations myself and witnessing pro-tibetan demonstrations too, I can tell you you find many, many different people out there, with quite different motives.
>>>>>>>>> I don't know how you french managed to separate from China to Chinese people. To me China included both its government and its people. Maybe what you said it true in french, I just can't imagine you would feel like nothing happened when i say fxxk france. This is defnitinely how it works in China. OK, let me assume you are right, shouldn't the protester have done a better job researching how chinese peopel felt before they went to street and acted crazy. And on the issue of tibet, most chinese are with the government, because dalai's independence movement has no appeal to most Chinese.


Are you suggesting those french on the street of Paris were a biased sample of french and the silent majority do like (or at least not dislike China)? I think most french simple don't care, China is thousands miles away from France and probably has little to do with their daily life.

Yes that was exactly my point. Most French simply don't care. Or may care about Chinese food, maybe, at best


I haven't seen CCTV for a long time, and my impression is that you usually don't see much negative news about France and European countries.

Nope - it's not about really negative news actually - it is about not showing all the stuff. That's the difference with foreign medias, which absolutely want to show everything they can, even when it is not true. In a word, the problem in China is that Xinhua shouldn't restrain info - the problem in the West is that the f*cking media should learn to restrain themselves, and keep quiet when they've got nothing to say or show, stop inventing it if they lack it, or ask the people who know. Truly your following statement is right, and should serve as a proof of the medias complete stupidity.
>>>>>>>>>> I agree, but we all know it so we won't blindly accept whatever we see, which makes it less a problem (still a huge problem). Media control is a problem, but should be the Chinese problem, not for the west. Because it is largely internal-focused.

The western media didn't think twice before blaming Chinese for everything and describing Dailai as the victim.

yep. For a start they should have tried to even listen to the Dalai actually. I think the Dalai was - paradoxically - a much better source of information than my own medias. Why? Because during the riot outbreak in Lassah, he denounced them. He denounced the whole torch-disrupting stuff too. Why? Because he knows the people who did that are on the wrong side of the fence, and they're giving a bad image to the Tibetan-separatist movement because of their violence and their extremism. If western media had ONE bit of good sense, they would have understood that IF the Dalai Lama is NOT supporting the riots in Lassah, it is because the Tibetan rioters actually did some pretty bad things there. But well, my medias never learn...
Le métèque - Admin
Admin
>>>>>>>>> I don't trust dalai. Action matters, not words. He surely denounced the disruption, but he support people's right to demonstrate. It is only a PR move, nothing more. You are saying that riot in lahsa is bad for dalai's movement. But many if not most in west countries would attribute it to the chinese oppresion, i.e the chinese is to blame, not the poor tibetan. call it conspiracy theory, but many in the west wants to see troubles in china, dalai is only a tool to them. As information leaks out, much of the tibetan activities were sponsored and even coordinated by the west government. I am sure french governemtn sponsored a few human right organizations.

I don't know how you french managed to separate from China to Chinese people. To me China included both its government and its people. Maybe what you said it true in french, I just can't imagine you would feel like nothing happened when i say fxxk france. This is defnitinely how it works in China.

That's the main point of difference to my view - please wait for some other French people to confirm, but we actually have a pretty good tradition of separating the country from its people. Even if you are ever to hear "the Chinese", you will have to understand it as "the Chinese government", mainly because there is no point bashing the masses who don't have any kind of control or power. And it doesn't only apply to China - when you saw the French - and most European - demonstrating against the US-led invasion of Iraq, they don't mean "the American people" when they used to say "the Americans" - roughly, the Bush administration. The point is that it's much easier for us to point out the Bush administration, as they are public common knowledge, while most of the French, including the not-that-happy minority, don't know the name of Hu Jintao or Wen Jiabao, or do not know how Chinese institutions work. Still they know that there are institutions at work, and that Chinese people and society can't be held responsible in itself for anything you would criticize them for. Every country has leaders, that's what they're here for.
This "differentiation" between the people and the government is something that has a lot to do with cultures, educations, historical references - and a different approach to nationalism. To take the US example again, the average US citizen will most definitely have a different approach than we do, and will be much more bound to identify the country with the people than its European counterpart, actually - that's a common point they share with the Chinese, and it has a lot to do with one's approach to one's own nationalism/patriotism.

I just can't imagine you would feel like nothing happened when i say fxxk france

Well the French will be offended because as far as we see it, as it appears to us when we're looking at the current events, we know - unconsciously - that when you're saying that you don't make any difference in your mind between the French, the Country and the Government - just like a lot of US basher didn't back in 2003. We're somewhat used to that
Again, I think it has a lot to do with trying to know how the other thinks.

OK, let me assume you are right, shouldn't the protester have done a better job researching how chinese peopel felt before they went to street and acted crazy. And on the issue of tibet, most chinese are with the government, because dalai's independence movement has no appeal to most Chinese.

Yes, but then? Chinese people can think whatever they want - they're not targeted because of what they think. Most French people don't agree with a lot of things happening in the US, on the religious agenda for instance - but we will not hunt those people for believing in something we don't, as long as they don't come here and start to make some mess. Most Chinese people may feel close to their government (actually nothing in your past education was ever done to make you feel you weren't, right? "中国共产党是中国工人阶级的先锋队，同时是中国人民和中华民族的先锋队，是中国特色社会主义事业的领导核心，代表中国先进生产力的发展要求，代表中国先进文化的前进方向，代表中国最广大人民的根本利益。etc..." ) but still they're not the one targeted here.

I'll be posting my thoughts tonight

Just to put it more simply, because I recognize I wasn't that clear: to me the way to "attack" others relates a lot to your own perception of your country and government. The average French doesn't feel exactly bonded to his government, even though he took a large role electing parts of it - so you can't expect him to believe it's not working the same way elsewhere. The average Chinese does not make the same differentiation and tends to side with its government for every topics that relate to China's prestige, even though he took little part electing it - so you can't expect him to believe it's not working the same way elsewhere.