Is boycotting Carrefour a rational thing?

I ask the question. Not that I don't have my own opinion already. But most French people I know came to the same conclusion: effects of such a movement seems to us most fruitless and counterproductive, and we still don't see the real rational link between the reasons why Carrefour is being boycotted, and what Carrefour really did as a company.

Let's summarize again what is at stake here.

So, days ago, a word starts to spread - one of Carrefour's main shareholders, from LVMH (who acquired a large chunk of Carrefour some weeks ago) is said to have contributed financially to the exiled Dalai-Lama government. Ok. Do we have his name so we can be sure of his identity? I say so because I didn't see his name on the internet yet, but maybe I just missed it. Nevermind.

So the Chinese are going to boycott Carrefour because of one of his investors' investors' connexions, am I getting it right or not?

Let's see that kind of situation the other way around - you'll see, that's an idiotic exercise I affectionate most - just like Ive read it on blogs such as 东南西北: is the fact that China is the most important US treasury bonds holder in the world implies that China wholeheartedly sympathizes with the US-led invasion in Iraq? Well Ive got doubts about that. Ive got a couple other examples of that kind of irony in my pocket, for sure.

For instance, do you remember how Marionnaud, a French famous perfume brand, was acquired by the Hong-Kong billionaire Li-Kashing (Li Jiacheng - 李嘉诚) back in 2005? Do you know about the identity of Marionnaud then most important shareholders?
Among them you have a Belgian citizen, named Albert Frère. But what is interesting is that M.Frère also holds responsabilities in LVMH... Damn! Does it mean Li Jiacheng gave his money to one of those evil LVMH Tibetan-huggers? Gosh!

Well does it mean Li Jiacheng actually financed the Tibetan separatist movement? Hardly. Does it mean the Chinese should boycott Belgian and other products because LVMH is actually being hold by people coming from half a dozen different countries around the world? Hopefully not.

Because if we were to follow the "logics" of the people out there demonstrating, I start to believe that you would show equal common sense boycotting Hong-Kongese products because of Li Jiangcheng involuntary involvement in financing a LVMH major administrator, don't you think?

Well actually I start to wonder if there is a real logic behind what is happening to Carrefour in China right now.
You know perfectly, and any French who went to China once will agree, that Carrefour is actually a Chinese-style supermaket with Chinese products sold to Chinese people. What the hell is really French in Carrefour, except for the shareholders and some people at the Chinese HQ? Ho yes. Wine. Perhaps, if you're lucky, some cheese. Most probably some liquors, or some L'Oréal product. And some Danone stuff too, even though they lost a lot of ground last year. And then? Do you think boycotting Carrefour will harm the usual Hennessy consumer? Ho man you can't believe how much France is scared by the idea that Hennessy may sell a thousand fewer bottles of brandy this year... Let's be serious and think again: who actually will really, REALLY get hurt the worst in the current situation? The French, or the Chinese who work with Carrefour, work for Carrefour, and buy Carrefour stuff? I don't see anyone getting any positive return from that crisis - except maybe Walmart ^^

If you think the thing is worth the fuss, well, come and explain it to me - to us. Please, I'm really eager to hear your point. Because from here, I can tell you, Chinese demonstrators in front of Carrefour give us the strange picture of a big mob who just can't get enough of shooting itself in the foot.

Agree, disagree? Come here and tell us!

You asked a good, but somehow unnecessary question.

Carrefour is in the wrong place at a wrong time. Many Chinese are very angry at what French did in Paris, warranted or not. They need a suitable outlet for get out their anger and make an example for other westners (i.e, if you piss us off, you need to pay). Carrefour is the best target for them. It is a major company and french. It would not be too personal to fight against such a giant. You don't want to boycott a papa-mama store run by a french couple. Because it would be too personal to be against another two individuals even they are fench. You probably smile to them everyday when you see this couple.

Carrefour is another story, no specific individual would be hurt. Carrefour has more than 100 stores in China, so it is very accessible to many people, thus convenient to protest.

As a major french company, carrefour will certainly have some influence over french politicians. Money is power.

If you think boycotting carrefour is not reasonable, can you think of a more reasonable way to achieve the same effect? boycott is a gesture, not the purpose.

Why boycott carrefour?

NO Chinese in this world would naively believe that they can boycott every European company. Thus, you need to focus in one country or even one company. At this time, you chose a french company, because the french pissed Chinese most in the torch replay process so far. A revenge is needed for many Chinese. Many Chinese had good impression of France, so they were probably hurt more by the sheer contrast between perception and reality.

I don't know if Carrefour really donated money to Dalai lama. But carrefour probably won't worry about any consequence of making donation to Dalai before this boycott. But they will after this boycott if they care about the Chinese market.

I know that carrefour probably has little to do with the guy that attacked torch relay. However, I still support boycott carrefour, and any other French brand/product, for that matter.

Here is my reason: the real problem in the Paris torch relay is the Paris government. As far as I understand, large portion of the people in Paris displayed hysterical antipathy towards China in that relay. Nobody should escape the punishment. In this case, the Paris government and its supporters MUST suffer the consequences.

I wish the pains and difficulties suffered by any/all French brand/product would be used as an incentive for the French people to think straight.

China is a rising power. French is falling behind as we speak. History told Chinese people there is no fair and justice in international matters. as demonstrated by this event. French will use every opportunity to attack China, as demonstrated by this event. And when China retaliates, well, you would have to learn to live with it.

Oh, to avoid the confusion that I am a commie: I live in Los Angeles, have a Ph.D, and was in the streets in 1989. This is how many of us Chinese people react: if you attack China, you attack me personally. I take any personal attack very personally.

If you think boycotting carrefour is not reasonable, can you think of a more reasonable way to achieve the same effect? boycott is a gesture, not the purpose.

Thanks for the post Luhua and welcome on these boards.
Your answer is very interesting - and most logical.

Our misunderstanding here comes from the fact that most French don't see actually how the Chinese may expect to have a real influence by a third-company boycott which isn't even state-owned.
Sure money is power. It is even more true today than ever in history, especially with the... "President" we have right now (didn't vote for him though), whose links to the business world are fairly well known. Actually we French had no surprise seeing recently a large chunk of our politicians kneel before China because of the heat-up. But I, as many other people, fail to understand the real gain China may get from such a situation. China believes by giving a fright to a part of the French investors and companies China will recover from losing - in their opinion - their face and claim some form of superiority. But to us, such events have completely opposed results. Partly because we know that the people who are going to kneel before China anyday now to keep up good business are not doing so out of shame or out of fear, but because they expect to go on exploiting China's resources and worforce. To you, these people while recognizing the Chinese People "superiority" in such a crisis will give you your Honor back, or something. To us, they will just have thrown another sugar at you, and will not respect you any better (actually, they do not respect much worldwide, so do not feel targeted at all ^^). And most of us believe China - and more importantly the Chinese - is worth much, much more a cheap sugar, don't you think?
Pride is important. French are proud too. But they are mostly proud about the way people from anywhere else may look at them. Chinese pride looks much more internalized to me. Too me, it's about being proud about yourself, about your honour and your face, before being proud about the way people see you - something which would work if diplomacy and the rest of the world was working after Chinese culturel concepts - but they aren't.
Some Chinese people Ive met seem to believe that it's all about the Olympics - that the torch in itself, the games will bring everyone together with China. That the Olympics are somekind of a magic spell, and that they don't need to work their image in anyway. That's simply not true. Although organizing the Olympics is now a given, getting most glory out of it depends entirely of the image of herself China gives to other countries. But right now, while the Chinese may seem satisfied soon at seeing the Western investors act like the dogs they've always been, the French are pitying the Chinese for letting themselves being manipulated that way, and still find easy satisfaction in this. Because although the people demonstrating will feel like being victorious if Sarkozy and his friends kneel, no-one here will respect one country that makes a foreign president unwillingly come to the Olympics by putting an economic/political gun on his head, like it is bound to happen. Again, we believe the Chinese people are worthier than a capitalist sugar or any kind of prehistoric mob threat - and worthier everything we're seeing for days in front of the Chinese Carrefours too, although I can tell you more and more people here are losing hope and start doubting it everyday.

I don't know if Carrefour really donated money to Dalai lama. But carrefour probably won't worry about any consequence of making donation to Dalai before this boycott. But they will after this boycott if they care about the Chinese market.

The point here, dear, is to know with which game China, the Chinese society and the Chinese economy are playing. The question is to know if China does believe in the world-wide capitalist web she put a foot in. You can't expect to play by the rules one day, and not another day because you see it fit for whatever reason - it does apply to world economy too, in my view. Mainly, that's also the reason why Carrefour, *as a strongly-China-implanted company*, would never have funded the Dalai Lama in the first place. The fact that no-one seems to address this obvious scam in China is worrying. Besieging a foreign company because of what its government is alleged to have done (we'll get back to this another time though) is bad enough - besieging it for the wrong reasons and for something they had nothing to do with looks even worse.

We really need to some clues or proofs about that "funding Dalai lama" stuff. Because to us, boycotting Carrefour to exercise some kind of revenge on the French Governement (or the French people? Who's really targeted here?) is about using bad means to complete a questionable goal (making one's lose face to get its own face back). To most people here the current events are just the expression of some Chinese hubris, with people frustrated by a thousand other things taking it to the streets against France as a cheap scapegoat - so let's think about more rational ways to achieve your goals maybe - or simply think about the nature of your goals - and prove them wrong.

Carrefour is not innocent, it has some kind of support for RSF. You know the role of RSF in boycotting Beijing Olympic and its connection with CIA.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=22503

The Fnac, Carrefour, Casino, Monoprix and Cora supermarkets, the Internet websites alapage.com, fnac.com and amazon.fr, along with A2Presse and more than 300 bookshops in France sell them.

Here is my reason: the real problem in the Paris torch relay is the Paris government. As far as I understand, large portion of the people in Paris displayed hysterical antipathy towards China in that relay. Nobody should escape the punishment. In this case, the Paris government and its supporters MUST suffer the consequences.

We'll be clear about that matter soon - especially when it comes to "Paris government" as you call it, and the important part: "as far as I understand".
Because living in Paris, I can tell you that "the large portion of the people in Paris displaying hysterical antipathy towards China" is a big scam. Most people just wouldn't give a shit about the Olympics, China or Tibet. The difference is that since that day the Chinese, just like you said, decided that the French "MUST suffer the consequences", well, people are caring more and more. And they do not care in China's favor, I can tell you.

I'll get back to this later in the day, but Scott I'll be interested to know what you're implying with your "as far as I understand"? I am most interested in knowing which medias gave you the most info about that, who told you such things, and what are, in fact, the crucial elements that lead you to think that way? That would help me to understand better where this idea of "China-hating Frenchies" is coming from to begin with. Thanks in advance.

Le métèque ,

You said, As far as I understand, large portion of the people in Paris displayed hysterical antipathy towards China in that relay.
Well, I can't agree on that. When was last time you saw some many people out that? Not to mention it was a work day.



See what your people had done with our flag!

I don't speak French, and they would have to kill me before I subscribe to CCTV or Xinhua. I get my news like everyone else: thanks to CNN and BBC, we see Paris people, old and young, man and women, even children, take great enthusiasm in supporting "free Tibet". If I was fooled by BBC and CNN, my apologies.

I know for a fact that "people are caring more and more", and I know we don't take that kind of care lightly. If you ever notice, the loudest complaints come for Chinese students overseas. We know what happened in Tibet. My roommate's father was born there. We have been under continuous China bashing for a very long time.

Some argue that other country did just as bad, why French is singled out? Because Paris government acted in its official capacity, nobody else does. Oh, just as things are about to calm down, they granted Dali some honor stuff yesterday.

brainwashedFrench wrote:Carrefour is not innocent, it has some kind of support for RSF. You know the role of RSF in boycotting Beijing Olympic and its connection with CIA.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=22503

The Fnac, Carrefour, Casino, Monoprix and Cora supermarkets, the Internet websites alapage.com, fnac.com and amazon.fr, along with A2Presse and more than 300 bookshops in France sell them.

Please, let's keep this debate on the right tracks. You can't be serious I suppose, about this CIA stuff and the fact that they are complice because they sell a book anyway.
Does selling Salman Rushdie's books makes those stores enemy of Iran? Does selling US books in Chinese bookstores makes these companies enemies of the Iraqis insurgents? Or does selling an anti-US books in Chinese bookstore makes these companies enemies of the US as well?

They're free to sell whatever they want to, including books bashing France (and bashing China), as long as they don't go against the law. And there is nothing in the law against that in France nor in the European Union, which basically allows for freedom of speech. The companies abide to the laws of the country they are operating in - as far as these companies are concerned, the fact that they may not allow these books to be sold in China shows their concern precisely. Anyway, this relates to what I said earlier about "playing by the rules". The rules are to be observed both ways - you can't expect countries, people and companies to respect them only when it pleases you, especially when they're in another country. That wouldn't be militancy anymore - just pure nationalist imperialism.

Let's also recall that afaik RSF is advocating Beijing boycott for the sake of foreign AND Chinese journalists rights in China - agree with them or not with, this has hardly anything to do with Tibet or hating China and the Chinese, especially when they want to defend Chinese journalists...

Another thing "brainwashed French": I suppose you posted that out of frustration or bad faith, hopefully. Good for you. But I will not tolerate brainless militancy here. Come with arguments or good-will, or please don't come at all. Thanks.

So you tell me why American boycott absolut Vodka
? Is it against any law?


http://www.boycottabsolut.com/

brainwashedFrench wrote:So you tell me why American boycott absolut Vodka
? Is it against any law?


http://www.boycottabsolut.com/

?
Well because they have the right to and because they feld offended by an ad, what's the problem in there?
I still don't see what you're looking for "brainwashed".

By the way I saw you edited your post, and I saw the content of it too. Im not quite sure what you are after. But I can tell you that if you're looking for trouble, that may happen soon.

I didn't put that up for some fool to destroy everything around. This place is about debate, thanks.

Last warning.

Well because they have the right to and because they feld offended by an ad, what's the problem in there?
I still don't see what you're looking for "brainwashed".

Oh they are offended by an ad, how rational!
And you feel offensive by my name? Easy, who isn't brainwashed, tell me. At least the western world think our Chinese people are brainwashed.

Do I seem to make any trouble? If you think it that way, it is your forum, do whatever you want to.

And you feel offensive by my name? Easy, who isn't brainwashed, tell me

Well I am not offended. I just think that being "brainwashed" doesn't qualify for being "brainless". You're right. No-ones' not brainwashed. You just proved your name right on the other topic didn't you

Oh they are offended by an ad, how rational!

?
Well it's not because people are stupid that you should be like them you know. As much as brainwashed you are, you STILL can choose, can't you?
I didn't say the Chinese didn't have the right to boycott Carrefour - I rather ask if they believe they are doing it for good reasons...!

Do I seem to make any trouble? If you think it that way, it is your forum, do whatever you want to.

no, but please post reasonable posts here. Again, it's not because people act dumbly outside that we ought follow them. The forum is about helping each other understand how we do think at home, not flame the whole stuff up, thanks in advance
Let's be constructive, please.